Curse

Shadow_Avenger · May 19, 2005, 06:42 AM // 06:42

Hmm, not really complicated. It actually would mean creating a extra dummy acount, so each player would have 5 actual PC accounts, the 5th would be hidden and a temp accout. Basically you would have to duplicate the char as they walked in to the arena areas and replace their chrs with the duplicates.
Otherwise you would be asking for a whole world of pain with bugs etc.

Crito · May 19, 2005, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Armor? Weapons? What if you wanted druids armor, but you dont have it on, where will your old stuff go? Really I think this is a kind of silly proposal because you can already do it to some extent. Just grb a PvP char and customize it with your skills. In the end nothing will change because the ones who want to be the best will work a little for it. Also what feeling accomplishment do you get when you reach 20 if you can be a 20 in every arena. Im a slow player so im not yet pvp worthy, but last night i could make a mock up of my guy and play w my guild. The mock up isnt as good as the reall guy will be but he;s a good start and i cant wait to get my runs weapon, ect. Enough from me.

CM

Griminald · May 19, 2005, 02:17 PM // 14:17

I'd like to be one of the first to offer a hypothetical compromise.

I'm a person who likes both PvE and PvP, but after ascending with my Ranger, I have very little interest in running the PvE gauntlet all over again to have a different main at my disposal.

My ideal situation is that all skills for PvP characters would be unlocked -- after you Ascended on one PvE character. This would serve as a form of training for would-be PvPers who need to get used to the game's mechanics. And let's face it, grinding the same place over and over and over after that to unlock everything is just silly (although ArenaNet needs to retain subscribers between expansions, and in the eyes of a company, what better way to do that than to force you to grind?)

I'm trying to do just that as a Monk/Ele and it's already getting old to me.

Cs Coldize · May 19, 2005, 03:25 PM // 15:25

I stopped reading at the counterstrike comment. That's wrong, I oughta know. What do you think the Cs means in my name lol. Well anyway, go on, cs is uber leet and is best fps ever. Im playing guildwars until I beat it, then going back to Cs, but ill still visit you all

Loviatar · May 19, 2005, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Griminald

I'd like to be one of the first to offer a hypothetical compromise.

(although ArenaNet needs to retain subscribers between expansions, and in the eyes of a company, what better way to do that than to force you to grind?)

.

completely wrong in every respect on this

1. they are not subscribers as they pay no monthly fee

2. every person who plays and then does something else til the next chapter comes out and grabs it is a plus to the company as there is less overhead expence while keeping the same revenue flow from new content sales

they provide prebuilts for casual gamers and the only ones grinding are the powergamers who aspire to the very top level of competition

Roken · May 19, 2005, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by MickeyC

an editorial by Mickey C.

guild wars: is it really all skill?

you may recall opening the flap of the guild wars box and reading the sentence “You’ll prove your worth with every battle as skill, not hours played, decides your fate.” you may also recall feeling ecstatic about finally getting into a mmo-style game that doesn’t require you to spend countless hours fighting meaningless monsters all by yourself and being bored to tears while you search for one rare item. some of you still feel that guild wars has lived up to its promise. however, there are countless others who disagree.

at approximately 3:30pm, est, on monday afternoon, i logged onto gw and toured all of tyria asking everyone this very question: “all in favor of reducing the grind, say ‘yea!’ all opposed, say ‘nay!’” while most players felt no need to respond, i did get a clear picture of the feelings of the majority within about 5 minutes. the “nay” vote was a whopping 5 people, while the “yea” vote was put to shame at only 22. of course, there are several intelligent people who stand up for the game the way it is and claim the grind, if there is such a thing, isn’t all that bad. around the time i conducted my little poll, i interviewed the leader of the team that had just won in the hoh, Marquis De J. he had this to say: “it’s a lot more based on skill then other rpgs, and beside, even fps need some skills… i mean… even fps need some grind.” well said, marquis. why, i remember wasting several months of my life trying to find the right gun in counterstrike while attempting to avoid awps people were able to use within 5 minutes of gameplay.

some of you may at this point be asking yourselves “what is this raving lunatic talking about? there is no grind.” while i do agree that the grind involved in gw is rather small in comparison to other games, such as swg, daoc, and lineage 2, there is still an ominous grind that is inescapably present. (those of you nay-sayers who don’t know what big words like “ominous” mean can find a dictionary and look them up.) yes, you can enjoy the game by playing through the pve missions a time or two and be done with it all in a week. yes, you can attempt to play some pvp without looking for runes or skills and keep yourself entertained for another few days. but, for most gamers, the entertainment value of the game is related to both sides being on a level playing field as well as being capable of winning. it is painfully obvious (“painful” means “it hurts”) that it is virtually impossible to win a pvp match against teams that have had the chance to grind if your team hasn’t. it also clearly does not put the two sides on a level playing field.
in addition, you may protest by saying that it takes little time to unlock most of the skills you would need for one or two different pvp characters. however, some of the more serious players like variety, which involves playing different professions. yes, you can switch your secondary profession once you ascend, but if you’re going for the large variety most hardcore pvpers are going for, you won’t have the skill points to buy the skills for your new secondary. yes, you can get those skill points by leveling past 20, but that, again, requires grind time.

the bugs inside the game the devs are failing to do anything about just make the grind that much more excruciating. it took me three days to unlock one skill i needed for a spiking ele build because every time i went into the zone and died, my henchmen would respawn underground. then, when i died again due to a lack of healing or tanking from the missing henchmen, i couldn’t respawn because i had henchies still living far away from anything threatening deep beneath the surface of the ground. upon complaining about this grind to my guild leader, sama, he simply responded with “what do you expect? it’s grind wars.” further into the conversation, he said “a lot of people claim you can do well in this game without unlocking stuff if you have the skills. but, if you go up against a team that has all the runes unlocked, you’re at a huge disadvantage.” and how can you argue with that? but, in order to get those runes, rare items, and elite skills, you have to spend months on tedious pve. so, i ask you, is it really a skill based game?

my british friend, Eternal, says it is. when i asked him this question, he told me, “it is skill based. whoever grinds the best wins.” as we sulked to one another a while longer, he reiterated his feelings: “i believe the pve-ers are happy the way things are, so i don’t see why the devs can’t just leave the pve intact exactly the way it is and allow the pvpers to unlock what they need more freely.”

while i can’t argue that there is some need for a grind and that the “unlock all skills” button from the betas may be a little ludicrous, i do believe firmly that something must be done to reduce the grind from its current state; especially since the reduction of rare drops they implemented last patch. it now takes a solid three hours to get a single rare item, which is absolutely absurd.

i do feel a bit on the dumb side for posting this on the public forums, because i know it will get flamed to death, but keep in mind that i’m not arguing that anything be changed to impair the pve aspect of the game. i just want my pvp skills and my runes to come a little easier. is that really so much to ask?

-Mickey C.
K A R M A [ZEN]

I stopped reading your post halfway through, about the same time I realized your post was nothing but pointless rambling and poor thought on your part.

First off, what is your definition of a grind? I can easily come up with 3 or 4, such as grinding for XP, attribute points, money, rares, and etc., but what is the game without a grind? Fun? Easy? Sure. But the grinding you're talking about is experience. More time input into your character means that your character is going to be more diverse than the other player's character, who did not put more time into his character.

Of course changing your character proffession at 20 is going to require grind time. Do you think they're going to just hand over all the skills up to 20 for you? That way, to unlock stuff in the game, you just get to 20 and change your profession 5 times, and BINGO! You have unlocked all the skills for PVP.

Ho...ly... crap. Are you an idiot? Of course people with more skills are shove your face into the dirt. If you do not take the time, yes I said the word you're dreading, time to unlock the skills, items, and runes, instead of sit here and complain your little moronic head off, then your character is going to flat out suck. Arenanet will not just hand you extremly rare items other people have taken their time out to farm just becuase you want the game to be fair. It's not Anet's fualt you have a life. This MMO is the best MMORPG to date. Its balanced, thought of ways to make the playing less agonizing, and the PvP is awesome.

To sum up my whole post, don't complain becuase someone owned you after they poured more hours into their character than you did.

PieXags · May 19, 2005, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Roken, not to blow your post up in your face or anything, but the entire argument of this thread is that well...Right on the box, you've got the quote "You'll prove your worth with every battle as skill, not hours played, decides your fate."

It then goes on to state that this is true for both PvE and the "highest levels of tournament play".

The argument is basically that the people got lied to in this matter. Seeing as how a stock PvP character, is MORE LIKELY to lose to someone who farmed the runes and pulled all their elite skills. (Even though this isn't always the case, some PvPers take offense that in order to beat people with both skill and runes, that they'll need to go "grind" for them as well. Even though the grind in this game is about 1,000 times less as in...any other MMORPG, if you can call it that, it's still an issue.)

Now that I've reviewed the situation several times, I've decided that yeah, I don't care if you give the PvPers everything, in fact I might enjoy it as well if I ever get bored of PvE and want to try the different classes at high-level PvP without going out to get everything.

I say give the PvPers everything, the PvE people get the benefit of playing through the PvE portion of the game, having funny instances with henchmen, knowing the storyline, and all that jazz. Being a primarily PvE player myself, I know that I do get fun out of just playing the PvE for what it is, not necessarily because I'll be able to get all this badass equipment later on.

Give the PvPers what they want, if the PvE players want it then too, they can go and use their fourth character slot and quickly create a PvP character I guess. If it's really a HUGE deal that you need to use your PvE character, we could just make it so that whenever you enter the arenas, you get to set-up your PvE character while you're in there, as a PvP character.

Cheers.

Virtuoso · May 19, 2005, 09:53 PM // 21:53

These so called "PvPers" who can't play the game for 30 hours and get all the skills and items they need aren't PvPers at all. They came expecting a game like Counter-Strike, and found out the game was nothing like Counter-Strike. In Counter-Strike, do you call players PvPers? No, you don't. I have been a hardcore PvPer since UO first came out (late 97 I believe) and in my opinion, if you can't cough up 30 hours to "grind" your PvP character out then perhaps its time for you to find a new game to play.

-Virt

Akshara · May 19, 2005, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Quote:

they provide prebuilts for casual gamers and the only ones grinding are the powergamers who aspire to the very top level of competition

I just can't agree with this Loviathar. I've no intention of aspiring to the top level of competitive play, but none of the characters which my preferred playing style lean toward are available as pre-mades - I have three PvE characters, and none of them are or have been offered.

Mo/Wa - healing prayers w/ tactics
Ele/Mo - fire magic w/ healing prayers
Mes/Ele - domination/inspiration magic w/ air magic

Right now, the premade healers and the mesmer are pretty lame, and don't really allow one to use the characters to their best extent. At least that's been my experience so far. The premades are a lot more limiting than may appear at first glance, and are designed more for individual players to jump into the random fray, rather than being designed to fit within a team.

Casual does not necessarily refer to the players approach or desire to play well. It refers to the total time they can commit in the longterm. Just because one has limited time to give doesn't mean they'll play whatever and don't care one way or the other.

Just wanted to clarify that.

Loviatar · May 19, 2005, 10:58 PM // 22:58

one small point
not to argue but to offer some hope

they are still adding and changing the mix of prebuilds and who knows that the next set will have something to your taste

it just came out and i personally will give them time to see what happens

i am talking weeks and months not days

PieXags · May 20, 2005, 06:09 AM // 06:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Virtuoso

These so called "PvPers" who can't play the game for 30 hours and get all the skills and items they need aren't PvPers at all. They came expecting a game like Counter-Strike, and found out the game was nothing like Counter-Strike. In Counter-Strike, do you call players PvPers? No, you don't. I have been a hardcore PvPer since UO first came out (late 97 I believe) and in my opinion, if you can't cough up 30 hours to "grind" your PvP character out then perhaps its time for you to find a new game to play.

-Virt

I agree with you on your points that people came expecting a game like CS, everything open lets go kill peoples. But that isn't ALL the people who play PvP, many of them are people who've played MMORPGs in the past, and really enjoyed the PvP portion but didn't so much like the grind. Some people just really like RPG PvP, but they've not the time available in their daily lives to spend making a character. And 30 hours...isn't going to get you everything you'll need to get the best gear/runes/skills/etc. Unless you've beaten the game a time or two before and know where everything is at. Which is hardly the case with most people.

Despite the fact that people should have EXPECTED a relatively small bit of grind to prepare for PvP, I feel that we can still bend a little bit to give them what they want. After all, it's not like giving them all the available things in the game to create and use on PvP characters will affect the PvE characters because the PvE players can create a PvP character of their own to use against them while still having their PvE characters. So it won't be hurting the PvE players in any real sense, it will just make more people happy with Guild Wars.

At least that's the way I see it.

Luphrecio · May 20, 2005, 06:30 AM // 06:30

whoa hold the phones stop the presses. . .the name o fthe game is called Guild wars. . .AAAH! wow what a concept. . . .yo folks, you're not going to get much fun out of this game if you are just trying to go solo or with like 3 or 4 friends, what you need is a guild. . .the game was desined for guilds, hence the name "guild wars" 1) there is no grind, grind is something you really dont want to do. . .there are thigns i dont want to do in this game. . .so i dont do them. . . .yes there is skill involved. . .and you need to spend time to do that, but you really dont need to spend too much time learning how to do this game. . .you just need a brain, and the ability to get along with others. .that's really it, do that, keep our mouth shut, dont piss people off (in game) test out a few guilds and bam you should be ok, but if you're not the kind of person to go and find people (or expect that to be really really easy) then stop playing this game now, return the box and cd or give it to someone who wants the game, this game obviously isnt for you

YOU DOnT need elite skills! sure they are nice (actaull most of them suck anyway i just use my regular skills and i am fine)but you wil still get pwned if you have a craptacular team, and most team are. . .craptacular, guild or pugs, it is very rare to find a really good guild that can work together in quests missions pvp while having fun etc. . .the guilds that can do that (few and far between) are the ones that will be on top. And the ones who run around like chickens with their heads cut off will be the ones getting pwned by the good guilds out there who know what teamwork is. . . this game was designed like that, and if you dont like it, go play a single player game, you're not going to amount to the things you want to be here without the help of others. . . sorry but just bein honest, If you cant find people, then you wont have fun here

Teamwork/Metting good people and guild=FUN and maybe pwning in guild wars

SOT · May 20, 2005, 06:48 AM // 06:48

Do you level up in this game? Then you are grinding

Luphrecio · May 20, 2005, 06:58 AM // 06:58

Really? I thought I was PLAYING A VIDEO GAME. . .anyway you guys bitch and whine all you want, I said my piece, I'm going to bed, got work tommorow

Ah CRAP! I fed the troll. . . . .

PieXags · May 20, 2005, 08:09 AM // 08:09

Luphrecio...did you read anything in this topic? I'm sorry I had to ask that, but based on your responses...I don't really see how you...provided any counter-points...at all, to any of the main ideas in this thread. It was basically just "Yeah you don't need that stuff quit bitching there's no grind if you have no friends you won't have fun". And that was about it.

Firstly, I am NOT in a guild in the game. The name Guild Wars is NOT there because the point is to be in a guild, the name Guild Wars comes from the "Guild Wars" that took place between the three human kingdoms before the Charr invasion and what not, in the storyline. Sure there are guilds involved, but you do not need a guild to pass the game or anything.

I personally have not joined a guild because I do not enjoy clans and/or "guilds" that are created for the purpose of competition, its like clans in FPS games to me. I don't give a damn about scrimmages or tournaments, I just want to play the damn game and have fun with good people that I know. So far, I've yet to find just a laid back group of good people who just want to have fun, talk on teamspeak/ventrilo and what not. People are all about "guild websites", and PvP and that sort of thing. I want my guild to be a group of good friends, not the sort of thing where it's like "Anyone want to be in our guild?! Just pm me and let me know if you want to join Warriors of Chaos!" (random name or something). I'm not into recruiting/guild battles, or any of that sort of thing. So don't bring guilds into this as they've not been part of the main ideas as a whole, and you CAN have just as much fun as other people if you are not in a guild, or always with people.

The main debate in this thread was whether or not giving the PvP characters everything would benefit us as a whole. Not...how much people like to bitch about not having friends or...whatever it is you were going on about mate.

There's a little grind, not like in other games by any stretch, but a little. PvPers just want to play PvP, and not have to raise a character spending hours of their time (whether it be 3 or 100) preparing a character. I just say...give it to 'em, it won't affect us PvEers really. Cheers people.

Zetor · May 20, 2005, 08:27 AM // 08:27

I can see both sides of this debate. On one hand, I like PvE a lot (a lot of "PvPers" are immature smack-talking idjits in any game, monster bashing with friends is a lot more relaxing), on the other hand, GW had the chance to have a unique no-grind PvP system among all MMOGs. The prebuilts and the ability to mix them up is "ok", but if you haven't unlocked a superior vigor rune (or a bow grip of fortitude... or whatever) you'll be at a massive disadvantage.
I currently play WoW (and have been playing online games since 1995 - MUDs, UO, AO, SWG, etc), where the PvP is almost entirely decided by the TIME you poured into your character, GW was supposed to be a nice change of pace. Why change the system to what it is now? I (as a primarily PvE player) enjoy finding new and interesting items / skills as much as anyone, but PvP battles shouldn't be decided by who got lucky in PvE.

And yeah, just equalizing the items / skills wouldn't make PvP "fair". There are guilds that bully and overpower smaller guilds at will, guilds that practice 80 hours a week, guilds that know all the dirty tricks / exploits (not necessarily hacks... things like "how to use lag to your advantage", the gold stacking dealio, etc), there may even be collusion (which is hard to monitor with no GMs - no monthly fees). It happened in every competitive game, it'll happen again, "hardcore" PvPers have more than their share of bad apples.
It's why I probably will never play in anything beyond level 20 random arenas and will get called a "noob" all the time /shrug.

I understand I'm probably just reiterating points made a few hundred times on this thread, but I'm bored at work!

wasting your time with 10-minute posts at a time,

-- Z.